Yes sister. I don’t know if this is enough to make it worth it, but you me laugh out loud. I’ve been thinking more and more about this icon business and how the nature of icons is to be seen. But sex is only “seen” in a pornographic world. So, for me, no possibility of a book that works here, at all. Your work makes me feel seen though, and I see ya back.
I think that's another interesting idea - can we redefine "icon" as something that is experienced? But again we still need some way to control the idea so that it's not just "starting with me I have discerned the true nature of sex/God"
One other two-part question that has been nagging me for many years (long before this text was “conceived” 😉) --
Do we have to consider sex divine in order to consider it truly beautiful or valuable? Does creatureliness detract from its wondrousness?
And of course, the rational answer is “no,” but there seems to be an underlying sense in all humanity (Greek mythology and beyond!) that sex’s wonders and ecstasies must make it more than creaturely, that it must be somehow divine . . . . And so many of our attempts seem to ultimately lead to divinity-making. Is it just me, or you see any of this as well?
“I have jumped over every last damn bar the defenders have put up, not because I care about this book (I don’t!), but because I am so incredibly tired of this insistence that women have nothing to say.”
All the women everywhere, arise and call you blessed. Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud.
My word, the absolute FIRE in this last post is something to behold. Again, so well done. I completely vibe with the performance art of it all - I noticed that with the speed that the parts were coming out, I thought something like, "Oh, oh there's another one already, oh wow....this is not going to be a normal book review". I already very much appreciated the other things you've had to say, but this whole review was just so masterfully done. You definitely go on my list of people who have something to say that I should listen to, looking forward to more.
“And there is nothing I can learn, nothing I can write, nothing I can achieve, nothing I can do, that will make me valued the way the smallest and loudest of you are.“ Boy, have I been feeling this lately. So well said.
Thank you for the blood, sweat, and tears that you put into this review. It has been cathartic for me to read and I’ve been grateful to be able to share it with others. You’re an excellent thinker and writer, and so damn funny. Well done.
Wow. That was a tour-de-force. If I were to attempt a thesis I'd want it reviewed like that before anyone else ever saw it. Fortunately for my tender ego, that ship sailed nearly 40 years ago and I have no regrets.
Also, as a middle-aged Christian man, I will second absolutely every single word of your overarching complaint, based my decades of experience and observations. I've been part of the problem! I pray that I am no longer.
You listened. You listen. You ponder. You mull over. You take to heart what is true. You take the time to write respectful responses to others. You acknowledge women writers. Thank you.
Thank, Barbara. You're very kind. These things you list are to me the very basics of being an honest man and at moments, by God's grace, a good man.
Also, watching my mother taught me an awful lot about what women are. No nonsense there, just a whole lot of wisdom, practicality, faithfulness, and unstinting effort.
“…culled from the blinkered experiences of the production team” - goodness. This made me laugh. I’ve only followed this hot little mess from a distracted distance, but your critique was worth it simply for the writing.
As to the central question: “Do women ever say anything worth listening to?” Yes. Your response, for starters.
This review is thorough and masterful, and a great read. I have nothing scholarly to add, but I will say I'm grateful to you for reading a book that I knew would have me both cringing and throwing things if I tried to read it. You took a big one for the team here.
Thank you. Especially for expressing yourself so clearly at the end. I hope you know that there are those that hear you and get it. More importantly, God hears you speak up for those whose voice has been diminished. Thank you.
Last week in a rare but refreshing honest conversation with my super devout Catholic brother in law on many things related to sex/abortion/politics, I told him that I could not submit to sexual rules and ethics that were solely crafted by men without any input from women. Then I read this review and was so delighted to read your words and felt your extreme frustration at the end that it really does boil down to the fact that women's voices and experiences are completely sidelined and ignored. That's not to say that men don't have valid viewpoints either - and I can even get on board with unitive/procreative sex as being an icon (perhaps) but that doesn't mean that other sexual expressions are by definition debased or desecrated. If a painter wants to paint an icon - great! But sometimes a painter might want to paint a still life, or abstract or portrait - and each can be a beautiful artistic expression that isn't meant to be an icon. That doesn't make it bad or immoral. To insist that non-iconographic sex (ie non-procreative/male penetration/et all) is necessarily evil or immoral just doesn't hold water for me.
And on a side note, as a person who has successfully used NFP in my family planning, I do want to just say that while it is effective when implemented properly, the effort and attention required to implement properly is incredible and (unsurprisingly) is 100% on the woman. It's infuriating to read comments like Christopher West's, who highlight it's accuracy without acknowledging the very real burden that it is. I'm a highly educated woman in the West and didn't feel prepared to implement it in my life without taking the church's class and reading two books on the matter. Then to take your temperature at the same time every day, while also monitoring your signs of fertility (which entails internal self exams of mucus production) in the midst of a normal, busy life of work and childcare is exhausting. It's a big ask and for the church to basically insist that this is the only moral avenue to manage family planning is outrageous. I'm a woman with every possible resource and it was a burden that I willingly chose to avoid hormonal options. To expect all women everywhere to make this choice is actually immoral in my eyes. It's a beautiful option, but it's just not right as an imposed moral requirement.
Lastly, one of the reasons I got off of hormonal birth control was because it was suppressing my sexual desire and response. In so doing, I realized how much my desire and response was tied to my ovulation and that my ability to orgasm is at its peak right when NFP would say it's time to abstain. So while my husband's abstention was a small sacrifice, it did not compare to mine. He has an orgasm every time we have sex. I do not. So my abstention increased the orgasm gap even more. This was when I first just really woke up to the reality that the whole premise was male centered and fucking (pun intended) enfuriating. You can practice NFP without the unneccesary moral baggage. So that's what I did.
Thank you for your review. Your voice does matter to me. Keep up the good work.
First-time reader who now must go back and read the 5 previous installments. This is glorious!
As I see it, sex is an echo, not an icon. In our foolish flesh, it stands alone as something so visceral and earth-bound that theologians are embarrassed at all its bloody baseness. Or dismayed by the comedy in it! The efforts to ameliorate "the act" back into the spiritual underpinnings of a Creator are just so much cringe, and fall way, way, way too short of any hint of glory. It won't stop them from trying, alas! But it is an echo of something, and we should never treat the reflection as the Thing Itself.
CSLewis proffered such a beautiful, transcendent approach to sex in "Out of The Silent Planet" that men dare not comment on it, lest Christian women take it to heart and demand such of them.
Yes sister. I don’t know if this is enough to make it worth it, but you me laugh out loud. I’ve been thinking more and more about this icon business and how the nature of icons is to be seen. But sex is only “seen” in a pornographic world. So, for me, no possibility of a book that works here, at all. Your work makes me feel seen though, and I see ya back.
Making people laugh out loud is most of the fun.
I think that's another interesting idea - can we redefine "icon" as something that is experienced? But again we still need some way to control the idea so that it's not just "starting with me I have discerned the true nature of sex/God"
Yes. This!
One other two-part question that has been nagging me for many years (long before this text was “conceived” 😉) --
Do we have to consider sex divine in order to consider it truly beautiful or valuable? Does creatureliness detract from its wondrousness?
And of course, the rational answer is “no,” but there seems to be an underlying sense in all humanity (Greek mythology and beyond!) that sex’s wonders and ecstasies must make it more than creaturely, that it must be somehow divine . . . . And so many of our attempts seem to ultimately lead to divinity-making. Is it just me, or you see any of this as well?
"when the first chapter exploded like an orgasming sunset on Twitter" Nearly lost my coffee there. LOL
And those concluding paragraphs, though. Straight fire. Many thanks, Laura.
Yes!! Same here!! That line so perfectly tied it all together for me 🤣
“I have jumped over every last damn bar the defenders have put up, not because I care about this book (I don’t!), but because I am so incredibly tired of this insistence that women have nothing to say.”
All the women everywhere, arise and call you blessed. Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud.
Amen!
My word, the absolute FIRE in this last post is something to behold. Again, so well done. I completely vibe with the performance art of it all - I noticed that with the speed that the parts were coming out, I thought something like, "Oh, oh there's another one already, oh wow....this is not going to be a normal book review". I already very much appreciated the other things you've had to say, but this whole review was just so masterfully done. You definitely go on my list of people who have something to say that I should listen to, looking forward to more.
“And there is nothing I can learn, nothing I can write, nothing I can achieve, nothing I can do, that will make me valued the way the smallest and loudest of you are.“ Boy, have I been feeling this lately. So well said.
Thank you for the blood, sweat, and tears that you put into this review. It has been cathartic for me to read and I’ve been grateful to be able to share it with others. You’re an excellent thinker and writer, and so damn funny. Well done.
This was so enjoyable to read, even while my heart broke. Thank you.
I read all of these. Thank you again! It matters.
You. Are. Amazing.
Wow. That was a tour-de-force. If I were to attempt a thesis I'd want it reviewed like that before anyone else ever saw it. Fortunately for my tender ego, that ship sailed nearly 40 years ago and I have no regrets.
Also, as a middle-aged Christian man, I will second absolutely every single word of your overarching complaint, based my decades of experience and observations. I've been part of the problem! I pray that I am no longer.
Well done, beautifully done, truthfully done.
Thank you.
Thank you John for your transparency.
You listened. You listen. You ponder. You mull over. You take to heart what is true. You take the time to write respectful responses to others. You acknowledge women writers. Thank you.
Would that more men would do the same.
Thank, Barbara. You're very kind. These things you list are to me the very basics of being an honest man and at moments, by God's grace, a good man.
Also, watching my mother taught me an awful lot about what women are. No nonsense there, just a whole lot of wisdom, practicality, faithfulness, and unstinting effort.
“…culled from the blinkered experiences of the production team” - goodness. This made me laugh. I’ve only followed this hot little mess from a distracted distance, but your critique was worth it simply for the writing.
As to the central question: “Do women ever say anything worth listening to?” Yes. Your response, for starters.
Thank you.
This review is thorough and masterful, and a great read. I have nothing scholarly to add, but I will say I'm grateful to you for reading a book that I knew would have me both cringing and throwing things if I tried to read it. You took a big one for the team here.
The part about women having to resort to social media resonated with me a lot. This is why I get so
p!ssed when men start to get sanctimonious and preach against social media. Easy for them to say! They are literally on a stage that women are denied.
This! 👆
In spades!
Thank you. Especially for expressing yourself so clearly at the end. I hope you know that there are those that hear you and get it. More importantly, God hears you speak up for those whose voice has been diminished. Thank you.
Holy moly. That mic was dropped so hard, I think it has fallen halfway through the planet. Absolutely masterful work.
Last week in a rare but refreshing honest conversation with my super devout Catholic brother in law on many things related to sex/abortion/politics, I told him that I could not submit to sexual rules and ethics that were solely crafted by men without any input from women. Then I read this review and was so delighted to read your words and felt your extreme frustration at the end that it really does boil down to the fact that women's voices and experiences are completely sidelined and ignored. That's not to say that men don't have valid viewpoints either - and I can even get on board with unitive/procreative sex as being an icon (perhaps) but that doesn't mean that other sexual expressions are by definition debased or desecrated. If a painter wants to paint an icon - great! But sometimes a painter might want to paint a still life, or abstract or portrait - and each can be a beautiful artistic expression that isn't meant to be an icon. That doesn't make it bad or immoral. To insist that non-iconographic sex (ie non-procreative/male penetration/et all) is necessarily evil or immoral just doesn't hold water for me.
And on a side note, as a person who has successfully used NFP in my family planning, I do want to just say that while it is effective when implemented properly, the effort and attention required to implement properly is incredible and (unsurprisingly) is 100% on the woman. It's infuriating to read comments like Christopher West's, who highlight it's accuracy without acknowledging the very real burden that it is. I'm a highly educated woman in the West and didn't feel prepared to implement it in my life without taking the church's class and reading two books on the matter. Then to take your temperature at the same time every day, while also monitoring your signs of fertility (which entails internal self exams of mucus production) in the midst of a normal, busy life of work and childcare is exhausting. It's a big ask and for the church to basically insist that this is the only moral avenue to manage family planning is outrageous. I'm a woman with every possible resource and it was a burden that I willingly chose to avoid hormonal options. To expect all women everywhere to make this choice is actually immoral in my eyes. It's a beautiful option, but it's just not right as an imposed moral requirement.
Lastly, one of the reasons I got off of hormonal birth control was because it was suppressing my sexual desire and response. In so doing, I realized how much my desire and response was tied to my ovulation and that my ability to orgasm is at its peak right when NFP would say it's time to abstain. So while my husband's abstention was a small sacrifice, it did not compare to mine. He has an orgasm every time we have sex. I do not. So my abstention increased the orgasm gap even more. This was when I first just really woke up to the reality that the whole premise was male centered and fucking (pun intended) enfuriating. You can practice NFP without the unneccesary moral baggage. So that's what I did.
Thank you for your review. Your voice does matter to me. Keep up the good work.
First-time reader who now must go back and read the 5 previous installments. This is glorious!
As I see it, sex is an echo, not an icon. In our foolish flesh, it stands alone as something so visceral and earth-bound that theologians are embarrassed at all its bloody baseness. Or dismayed by the comedy in it! The efforts to ameliorate "the act" back into the spiritual underpinnings of a Creator are just so much cringe, and fall way, way, way too short of any hint of glory. It won't stop them from trying, alas! But it is an echo of something, and we should never treat the reflection as the Thing Itself.
CSLewis proffered such a beautiful, transcendent approach to sex in "Out of The Silent Planet" that men dare not comment on it, lest Christian women take it to heart and demand such of them.
“A good paint job can’t save a house with a bad foundation.” Nope, but it can sell it. Perhaps that’s the point.